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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:58 pm 
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I've started this new thread for discussion about the Epic Line of fire rules.

Quote:
I was more meaning that the unit will become broken by being targeted. so a unit of 4 lictors behind terrain gets shot at twice and loses 1 member. they are now broken so now they cant activate. by the rules they cant be targeted at all.

Unfortunately nids don't have drop pods or much cheap long range (60cm is the furthest) firepower available. we do have teleporters/scouts but half the units have no FF so they cant hurt skimmers. even when they do have FF there is the overwatch order on units far away that will nail most of the assault team. this is one reason why I don't like TLOS in epic.

I don't have a problem with the nid army list or the rule book. As a nid most players vs me will try and set up corner to corner and that is ok. Add in TLOS being able to see things through cover and that means that key bugs wont make it across or activate on a 3+ to march if BMed. I found it extremely hard to protect a dominatrix or hydraphant from shooting as titan killers on over watch can interrupt my 500pt supreme commander dominatrix during anyone of her 3 moves and shoot from across the table. -1 to hit doesn't really count for that much when 3 do D3 each.

TLOS benefits firepower heavy armies at the expense of CC ones. Abstract LOS forces a more action packed and dynamic game as the enemies guns can be mitigated through intelligent movement across the battlefield. TLOS is just run forward and hope the enemies dice are kind to you.

One thing that I would like to really really state...and that is that this is in no way a rant against anyone or the tourney or anything. I am just stating about why I don't like TLOS and am surprised that the local group changed that rule section.

This is the rule Spiv is referring to:
Quote:
1.9.2 Who may shoot?2
In order to shoot, a unit must be in range and have a line
of fire to at least one unit in the target formation, and
must not be suppressed.
Line of fire: The line of fire is a straight line drawn from
the shooting unit to one unit in the target formation. The
line of fire is blocked by terrain features such as
buildings, hills, woods, etc. Weapons higher up can often
see over any terrain that is lower down. Buildings, rubble,
woods, fortifications and the like don’t block the line of
fire to or from units that are in the terrain itself unless the
line of fire passes through more than 10cm of the terrain
feature (ie, you can shoot 10cm ‘into’ a terrain feature,
but the line of fire is still blocked to units on the other
side). The only units that can block the line of fire are
war engines (see 3.0). Other units do not block the line of
fire for friend or foe.
Range: In order to shoot, a unit must be in range of a unit
to which it has a line of fire in the target formation.
From the same page:
Quote:
Lines of Fire: In Epic, the terrain and the models are
assumed to be the same scale, so if you want to check a
difficult line of sight between two units, all you need to
do is bend over and get a ‘model’s eye view’ to see if
they are in each others line of fire.
Spiv is talking about all terrain blocking line of sight to anything more than 10cm deep into it, and to all models behind the terrain (which is what the first quote above indicates).
We play that terrain uses line of sight rules (if a model can see the enemy, it can see the enemy), except for things like Forests which are treated in a more abstract manner; regardless of whether a forest stand only has a few trees on it, it is treated as solidly forested and blocks LOS.

I am used to playing the second method, as are most WA players. It also seems to be the most common way to play terrain from what I have seen of international battle reports and discussions.
However it doesn't match this rule: "Buildings, rubble, woods, fortifications and the like don’t block the line of fire to or from units that are in the terrain itself unless the line of fire passes through more than 10cm of the terrain feature (ie, you can shoot 10cm ‘into’ a terrain feature, but the line of fire is still blocked to units on the other side)." It seems to be more used because "it works" than it is literally what the rules say.

If the rules we play aren't an exact match to the rules as written it's got to be worth a discussion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:03 pm 
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What's the difference?
I'm glad you asked. I've made a couple of images out of a photo of the tournament table where the most assault orientated army in the game (Spiv's Nids) fought the most shooting orientated army in the game (My Tau).

Example 1
Here's the way we usually play it. There is one unit on the table: a Tau Broadside.

Image

Every piece of terrain on the table at a minimum offers -1 to shooting, and a cover save to infantry in it. I've put down some labels with guesses at what sort of Line of Sight blocking each terrain piece provides. "Hide Large" should give cover to any large models behind it. The rough cylon peices are pretty low, so give cover save on the close halfs and only block line of sight to the far sides.
This particular table has no woods, jungles or forests, so nothing is an abstract LOF blocker.


Example 2

I've edited the image to show approximately what would be visible to the Broadside if all terrain blocked Line of Fire to anything past them and anything more than 10cm into the piece.

Image

It's a quick hack job so the angles aren't perfect, but the the blacked out areas would be invisible to the shooter.
That's an approximation of what Spiv is talking about, and obviously he's correct that it would have a big impact on the game.

Discuss.
:D


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Thanks Matt for that excellent picture that shows what I am trying to put forward.

From the example used,

Deployment
Usually people make me deploy in the corner formation. however as can be seen, this would allow my nids to hop from cover to cover and never be shot at unless on over watch. And then only once. So people may choose long table edges only vs myself.

Activation
Not being able to be targeted barring indirect fire weapons means that BMs would not be assigned to formations and don't give the -1 to activate. so more reliable activations.

Movement
any CC/short range shooting army would be able to advance onto the tau army unmolested from

A. right front
B. left front
C. right flank

This means that firebases are now a trap for the defending army. You would need to move and cover fire lanes with mobile firepower and not rely on a fixed phalanx system.

Shooting
A. Skimmers not sniping out back field units of choice if the terrain was hugged but not entered
B. Support firepower would be diluted as an assault force from the right or even the left flanks could only be seen and then targeted by over watch if they were close to the assault force. They wouldn't be able to fire over/through terrain unless a skimmer and were closer to the terrain than the target.
C. Nid firepower would hit on masse and not a formation at a time
D. More titans fielded as they can actually cross the battlefield and not be seen (ok we know Matt has KAPOW TITANS TO THE FACE! flyers but you know what I mean).

Engage
A. less support attacks from fire fighting units as if the enemy is on the other side of a forest then they cant see the enemy. Makes CC troops superior than the current preference for FF troops.

These are just some of the implications from using the LOS rules from the book and not TLOS.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:29 pm 
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I wish I wasn't on the other side of the world and could sit down with you Chris and explain things face to face... it would be a lot easier.

A proper understanding of some of the rules involved may shed a bit more light on things.

First up, I'll cover Overwatch.
Overwatch fire can only be declared after each movement srgment has been completed. So in the case of a March action, there are 3 opportunities to declare Overwatch fire (after each of the 3 individual moves). This means that formations can move from cover to cover and not be fired at if the Marching formation player is clever. This will reward the clever player in the way that was outlined earlier. Remember also that the Overwatch player has to declare if their Overwatch formation is popped-up or not as soon as they go on Overwatch.

I'm not sure where the confusion has arisen about the Skimmer rules. Intervening terrain blocks LOS but some common sense has to be applied.
Is there anyone here that would try to claim that the Monolith in the following picture has it's LOS blocked by the terrain?
Image
If we follow the rules as written, the low scrub may block LOS.
This is a very silly situation and that's why it has become neccessary for certain interpretations to be adopted (not just by us but by the majority of the Epic Armageddon community around the world).
Terrain does not have infinite height.

In another example, the Necron Monoliths are clearly nearer to the intervening terrain so they can pop up and shoot at the Chaos formations. If they do not pop up, they cannot shoot.
Image

Here the Eldar Revenent Titans are well hidden behind intervening terrain and anyone wishing to shoot at them is going to have to maneuver to get LOS (with or without the Skimmer ability) thus rewarding clever placement by the Eldar player.
Image

The 10cm rule works perfectly for certain terrain types (woods being the most obvious).
The Necrons can see 10cm into the trees and can therefore shoot at the Chaos Superheavy tank.
Image

To make things easier, we could just play with the old GW cardboard buildings. It would be much clearer what everything is on the table but it might look a little boring.

Common sense between the players will almost always solve these problems.
Nid armies are designed to be shot up as they cross the board. Once Nids reach their opponent, they have the advantage (even if they have no FF). This has to be taken into account in these discussions.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:53 pm 
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I'm still quite new to this game so forgive the resurrection of a thread that really interested me but seemed to end quickly.

From the rules where Matt quoted previously:
Quote:
12 1.9.2 Who May Shoot
Q: What blocks line of sight (other than obvious terrain)?
a) Enemy models
b) War engines (friend or foe)
c) Friendly models other than your detachment, group, whatever
d) Stands within your own detachment.
e) Ruins
f) Shoot at whatever’s in range and not blocked by hills or large
buildings?
g) I misunderstood something.
A: The answer is b, e & f. Terrain blocks the LOF, units don’t.
My focus here is on the ruins part here. I'm pretty sure when we played the mega battle that ruins didn't block line of fire, it was more like the true line of site. Am I confused, or should I be answering g) to the above? :mrgreen:

-edit- I think my confusion may be on my definition of ruin. That 5 mins at the start sure sounds useful. It sounds like solid buildings are all that really block los locally?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:09 pm 
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I think the easiest way to explain the way terrain is played in Epic locally is that it is true line of sight for everything except forests. AFAIK Forests block line of sight to everything behind them after the first 10cm, and everything else only blocks LOS of it actually does block the firer's line of sight.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:50 pm 
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It really is a question of common sense.
In the past, I've played that all terrain is area terrain and it leads to all sort of silly situations (as in the Necron Monolith photo above).
Questions arose when introducing new players and we adopted the present interpretation (along with the majority of the Epic Armageddon community).

There were several times in recent games that ruins completely blocked LoS to a target and we played as such.
If any part of the target is obscured, the -1 modifier is applied.

Trees/jungles/woods block LoS to the edge of the terrain feature and to the height of the highest tree. A player can target an enemy unit inside the woods if they are within 10cm of the edge of the terrain feature with a -1 modifier.

Imagine a player had an Imperator titan in a large ruin terrain feature. It is positioned 11cm away from the edge of the terrain. Is anyone going to claim that the titan cannot be targeted because it's more than 10cm into the terrain?
These are the kind of issues that have lead us (and most players around the world) to the current interpretation.
This is one of the complexities of the style that the Epic rules were written in.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Sounds good! I think I'll become the type of Ork that loves tree huggin!

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