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Ulitmates Rules Questions - WestGamer
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:43 pm 
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Can I please get the following answered? It will define what army and/or units I may take... if anyone else have any questions on rules etc please feel free to tack on the back of this.

I could be taking lizardmen to ultimates. Can I get a ruling in lieu of an official GW FAQ for the new book?

1. Are Lord Kroak's Deliverance of Itza and the Engine of the God's Burning Alignment able to target all enemy units, even if the units are engaged in combat or not within the front arc?

The Deliverance of Itza spell says that it is a "direct damage spell that targets all enemy units within 12"." The Burning Alignment spell says it is a "direct damage spell that targets every enemy unit within 4D6"." However, BRB 31 says that unless otherwise stated, the spell targets only units in the front arc and cannot target units engaged in close combat. Therefore, the rules as written appear inconsistent with the previous version of the spell, the description of the spell, and fluff.

2. In a unit of Salamander Hunting Packs that contains more than one Salamander, do you resolve the number of hits against a unit by each Salamander individually or at the same time?

- I would assume that as a unit, they all fire at once and then remove casualties.

3. Does the Predatory Fighter rule allow for an additional attack from models making Supporting Attacks beyond their single Attack (for non-monstrous models) or three Attacks for Kroxigor?

The Predatory Fighter rule says "Whenever a model with this special rule rolls a 6 To Hit in close combat, it immediately makes another Attack." The BRB states that a model making a supporting attack can "only ever make a single Attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on his profile, or any bonus Attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects." There is some dispute as to whether the PF rule is intended to override any conflicts with the Supporting Attacks rule (e.g., PF's extra attacks would have no effect for Saurus or Kroxigor in mixed units).

4. Can Arcane Unforging target a standard bearer who carries a magical standard? If Arcane Unforging destroys a magical standard (such as a magical Battle Standard), is the standard replaced with an ordinary standard?

Arcane Unforging targets a single enemy model and states that the item is immediately destroyed and cannot be used for the rest of the game on a 2+. The BRB says that the standard bearer ordinarily cannot be removed as a casualty and that another rank and file is assumed to pick up the banner. Given the unusual interaction, it is not clear whether the banner can be targeted or replaced.

Any thoughts?

Spiv

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:11 pm 
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my 2c

Arcane unforging can target any model. Therefore you can destroy a magic banner. However when you kill the standard bearer he picks up the standard which is now just a normal standard because the magical part is gone. I could also see one arguing that the standard is destroyed therefore is gone.

Predatory Figher - I think the rules are very clear. It gives a extra attack. You only get one attack from second + rank, so no extra attack from models in the second + rank. There is no rule conflict to be overwritten as the rules are very clear. Was this the intent who knows?

On burning alignment I think it hits everyone as the text does overight BRB.

Salamanders as its a unit hitting I would say you work out all hits at once. For example you dont roll all bow fire from a unit individually.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:43 am 
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does anyone have any thoughts on this? I just don't want to waste time painting up models and find out that there is a different interpretation.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:47 am 
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Will respond as soon as I have sufficient time to investigate Spiv. Might not be for a few days however.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:13 pm 
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No dramas Luke, whenever you can is cool.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Quote:
Predatory Figher - I think the rules are very clear. It gives a extra attack. You only get one attack from second + rank, so no extra attack from models in the second + rank. There is no rule conflict to be overwritten as the rules are very clear. Was this the intent who knows?
I was pretty sure you just made another attack, you werent given one. Therefore it did work in the second rank. If you were given an extra attack then you would never be able to use Predatory Fighter even in the front rank, as your initiative step has already passed...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:58 pm 
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I am happy to go with Toms interpretation on PF. People have highlighted that Kroxies would never get to use it in skink cohorts if that was the case. In all seriousness though as it says makes another attack I do see the argument for it happening but I also see the argument against.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:12 pm 
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While i have not read the current Lizardmen book. In most cases the Rulebook and associated FAQ takes precedence governing targeting rule ambiguity.
So if a spell is identified as a "Direct Damage" spell it falls under the specifications of "cannot be used against units in combat", pg.508 under Spell Types - pretty clear cut. Unless it says in the Lizardmen book specifically that it can target these abilities into combat any ambiguity is taken care of by the Rulebook.

In regards to Predatory Fighter.
The Warhammer Rulebook, p.49 (second para) states "Of course, a warrior making a supporting attack is rather more constricted by the press of bodies than one who is face to face with his foe. To represent this, he can only ever make a single Attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on his profile, or any bonus Attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects".

While i understand the Lizardmen book creates unnecessary ambiguity with the Predatory Fighter rule the Rulebook completely dismisses it with this umbrella statement...as i believe Predatory Fighter would fall under the "SPECIAL RULE or OTHER UNUSUAL EFFECTS" part of the statement.


To the other points, i cant chime in without more info.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:13 pm 
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I think the predatory fighter question is pretty cut and dried, if you look at the quote from the rule book: "only ever make a single Attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on his profile, or any bonus Attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects".
Surely predatory fighter is conveying exactly the sort of bonus attack the rulebook contemplates, and then expressly states does not give the right to make additional attacks from a supporting position.
It would be different if the Lizard army book expressly stated PF even applied to grant models making supporting attacks an extra attack (as that would be a case of the Army book ruling over the general rule book).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:14 pm 
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So, yeah. What Exavia said. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Yeah thats a better argument than mine.... but I still prefer the world in which mine is the right one :P

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Haha funny!

So wolflord the old "because I said it, it must be true!" argument. Yes only if it we so, we wouldn't need GW to dictate this to us!

I've been thinking about the Ability of destroying magic items that models hold that I believe Kroak has.

I don't believe it works against standard bearers. The reason for this is a regular standard bearer unlike a BSB is not a character, it is not eligible for "look out sir!", it cannot be specifically picked out by spells, shooting, combat etc. Due to that, I believe that a regular standard bearer would be ineligible to be the target. While I acknowledge that I may be wrong, my understanding and RAW observation tells me quite strongly that this is the case.

Plus, why would you bother targetting a regular standard bearer...they usually only have a very tame banner.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:05 pm 
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I know Im wrong. Its just the vibe man :P

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:44 pm 
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My 2C;

- Those particular Direct Damage spell would affect enemy units engaged in combat, as the spell does not target them. The restriction for Direct Damage spells specifies that the spell cannot target units engaged in combat. The better question is - Does Burning Alignment/ Deliverence of Itza target ANY units?

- Resolve all Slamander hits at the same time, then resolve all wounds.

- Predatory Fighter additional attacks would fall under the 'Special Rules or Abilities' part of Supporting Attacks, and would not allow models not in the front rank additional hits.

- Arcane Unforging can target a standard bearer. The magic propeties of the Standard would be destroyed, but the mundane properties (ie - being a banner) would persist.



My Questions;

- Will Ultimates be using the rules for mysterious terrain (particularly woods) and occupiable buildings? It would be great if every player across the tournament were using the same rules across all games, as opposed to agreeing to the use of the building rules or mysterious terrain rules with each player each round.

- 'During this time you must show your opponent all of the models in your army that will be deployed during the initial set up' Does this include models that are deploying as Scouts? Essentially, when does 'The Initial Set Up' end?

- No single unit filler may count for more than 4 models in a unit. Do you recognise the differences between a Unit Filler and a Regimental base. I have modelled 6 models onto the same base (for ease of ranking up/ removing casualties), but they also take up the space of 6 models in a unit. Im concerned that this breaks the above rule of only 4 models per base if you do not distinguish the different between unit fillers and regimental bases. I do not want to be penalised.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Quote:
My Questions;

- Will Ultimates be using the rules for mysterious terrain (particularly woods) and occupiable buildings? It would be great if every player across the tournament were using the same rules across all games, as opposed to agreeing to the use of the building rules or mysterious terrain rules with each player each round.

- 'During this time you must show your opponent all of the models in your army that will be deployed during the initial set up' Does this include models that are deploying as Scouts? Essentially, when does 'The Initial Set Up' end?

- No single unit filler may count for more than 4 models in a unit. Do you recognise the differences between a Unit Filler and a Regimental base. I have modelled 6 models onto the same base (for ease of ranking up/ removing casualties), but they also take up the space of 6 models in a unit. Im concerned that this breaks the above rule of only 4 models per base if you do not distinguish the different between unit fillers and regimental bases. I do not want to be penalised.
Those I can give you quick answers on.

- Mysterious terrain will not be used on any table unless there is a terrain guide on that table that specifies it. I won't confirm now whether there will be any of these features (or what they are), you'll just have to see on the weekend. ;)

- "Initial setup" includes all setup before game turn 1 commences. You are not required to show your opponent hidden night goblin fanatics or dark elf assassins for instance.

- Regimental bases and unit fillers are two different things. Regimental bases are simply the exact same models that the unit is made up of, on a combined base rather than separate bases. Unit fillers allow for a bit more creativity. What you've described sounds fine, but you can shoot me over an image via e-mail if you're concerned.

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