It is currently Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:30 pm

All times are UTC+08:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:51 pm
Posts: 452
Location: Perth
As the title state.

Blood Bowl Teams consist of both strong teams and weak teams. I read this recently and thought it was worth raising. It might encourage players to play less used teams or to take skills less used or to allow more options for building a team. Also to prevent or dissuade (even temporarily) cookie cutter builds.

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm

http://www.plasmoids.dk/NTBB2014.pdf

...the floor is open.

_________________
GW - we like to FAQ things up :)
The semantics King!

2012 Ultimates Warhammer - Best General
2012 Ultimates Warhammer - Champion


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 7:50 pm
Posts: 5800
Location: https://advanceop.wordpress.com/
Looks like change for changes sake to me.

Should halflings exist in parity to tier 1 teams? Hell no, they are a joke, and their rules should reflect that. But boy do you have bragging rights when you beat someone with them. :)

_________________
Image
Maxim 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.' - Schlock Mercenary
Hobby Bloggin


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:47 am
Posts: 1673
Location: Perth
6) Bank: At the start of any game, all cash above 150K are automatically treated as Petty Cash.
Petty Cash does not have to be spent, but does add Team Value.
7) Concessions: The team that receives the concession no longer gets the conceding team's cash.
The cash is just lost.

I really dont like either of these changes.

_________________
Image
WWW.SOULRAVEN.COM
Last BRAWL Champ
First person in Australia at a tournament to beat Doubleskulls Orcs


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:47 am
Posts: 1673
Location: Perth
And I also think that if Mummies loose Mighty Blow and get Grab there should be some kind of discount.

_________________
Image
WWW.SOULRAVEN.COM
Last BRAWL Champ
First person in Australia at a tournament to beat Doubleskulls Orcs


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 4:00 pm
Posts: 3401
several thoughts...
- Zons linewoman cost increase not balanced, increase for no benefit...
- minotaur with leader, wtf how can a player with neg traits Loner and Wild Animal be a leader of a team, silly idea
- river trolls on goblin team: lose neg trait and gain 2 skills for no cost adjustment, ridiculous!
- halfling catcher: not a fan, stunty and AG4 is too good a combo, its something that should be earned...
- human catcher: increase in AV for no points increase? the writer's comment about human catchers should be able to 'shine at something' is rather odd...MV8, start with dodge and catch makes them pretty shiny...two inbuilt rerolls and high speed should have some negative...ie lower strength and armour...
- Khemri losing decay makes the skill irrelevant and thus would be removed from the game as no other team has that neg trait...plus its a fluffy differentiation...
- WTF is with +1 to armour rolls when fouling...how is that good for the game...
- sneaky git change is unwieldy
- justification for increase to Wiz cost?
- not a fan of the treasury changes
- Slann blitzer: meh to the cost decrease, although would prefer to see them replace Diving Tackle with Block
- dont see the point of Thick Skull on the thralls
- decrease of Ogre costs doesnt work for if cost of ogre with or without Loner is the same...

i have rambled enough for now...

_________________
Religion - the ancient world's equivalent of fandoms!


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 11:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:47 am
Posts: 1673
Location: Perth
I kind of agree with some of them, ag4 catcher for haflings makes a very reliable throwee and stunty and ag4 isn't that big a deal on M5 player IMO, and would significantly lift the team. That is the purpose of all this to make all the teams been on a level playing field.

Having said that that, the fact that some of the teams arent as good as the others is one of the things I like most about Blood Bowl. The 2 season's I took Slann in RnR, I knew full well I was pushing s#!t up hill and that each game was going to test me, but that made each win all the sweeter. I can see where plasmoid is going with this and if there ever was a new LRB (which I highly doubt there will be) I think some of the changes mentioned would be good ( currently Khemri are terrible ) but at the moment I'm happy with Bloodbowl how it is.

_________________
Image
WWW.SOULRAVEN.COM
Last BRAWL Champ
First person in Australia at a tournament to beat Doubleskulls Orcs


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 8:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:13 am
Posts: 2185
I had floated the idea of testing this in the past, separate from BRAWL and R&R but there was limited interest.

Agree with a good chunk of the proposed changes, but some are silly.
Quote:
And I also think that if Mummies loose Mighty Blow and get Grab there should be some kind of discount.
Disagree with this. Mummies truely irk me that they have str 5, might blow and no neg trait, regen and you can have 2 of them in a non-stunty team! Swapping to Grab is fair for the cost.

Taking away block from zon blitzers and Wardancers and swapping them for other skills is also an interesting idea, obviously to remove starting blodgers from teams.
Quote:
several thoughts...
- Zons linewoman cost increase not balanced, increase for no benefit...
- minotaur with leader, wtf how can a player with neg traits Loner and Wild Animal be a leader of a team, silly idea
- river trolls on goblin team: lose neg trait and gain 2 skills for no cost adjustment, ridiculous!
- halfling catcher: not a fan, stunty and AG4 is too good a combo, its something that should be earned...
- human catcher: increase in AV for no points increase? the writer's comment about human catchers should be able to 'shine at something' is rather odd...MV8, start with dodge and catch makes them pretty shiny...two inbuilt rerolls and high speed should have some negative...ie lower strength and armour...
- Khemri losing decay makes the skill irrelevant and thus would be removed from the game as no other team has that neg trait...plus its a fluffy differentiation...
- WTF is with +1 to armour rolls when fouling...how is that good for the game...
- sneaky git change is unwieldy
- justification for increase to Wiz cost?
- not a fan of the treasury changes
- Slann blitzer: meh to the cost decrease, although would prefer to see them replace Diving Tackle with Block
- dont see the point of Thick Skull on the thralls
- decrease of Ogre costs doesnt work for if cost of ogre with or without Loner is the same...

i have rambled enough for now...
Tomb Guardians aren't the only ones with Decay (Nurgle Rotters), but think it should stay. Give them Break Tackle for a slight increase in cost and you are there I reckon.

Thick Skull on Khemri positionals (Blitzra and Throwra) is definitely fair.

You are right that AG4 on Stunty is too good, maybe just a MV increase and catch? I added to plasmoid that Sure Feet should give +1 to landing rolls for Stunties as a little boost for them.

Minotaur with Leader is stupid. Leave Chaos alone! High Elf thrower is the best thrower in the game, so changing from Safe Throw to Sure Hands removes the character of them. Trolls change is also complete madness. These are all recent changes and are just not required at all.

Sadly it appears as though his house rules have got a little out of hand lately as initially the changes were not so sweeping :( It's a good idea to narrow the tiers, but it should always be hard for zon team to beat a dwarf team and a halfling team to beat even Goblins!

_________________
Sandgroper Cup 7 & Redneck Rumble 2013 - Double Crown! (Skaven - Warpstone Cometeers)
BRAWL league winner (2 seasons)
Blood Bowl Fanatic!!!


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:47 am
Posts: 1673
Location: Perth
Quote:
Quote:
And I also think that if Mummies loose Mighty Blow and get Grab there should be some kind of discount.
Disagree with this. Mummies truely irk me that they have str 5, might blow and no neg trait, regen and you can have 2 of them in a non-stunty team! Swapping to Grab is fair for the cost.

Taking away block from zon blitzers and Wardancers and swapping them for other skills is also an interesting idea, obviously to remove starting blodgers


The only thing the change from Mighty Blow to Grab on mummies does is slightly slow down their skill progression, your first skill up is always going to be Mighty Blow unless you roll a double and then it's block, so I can see I was wrong about the points reduction but only see it effecting the starting teams. Also I double checked the only take the blodge off Wardancers, Amazon Blitzers keep it. And Thick Skull on Thralls would be awesome, it means they only go off the pitch 1 in 6 times after you break their armour, and you need Thralls on the pitch to reliably activate Vamps.

_________________
Image
WWW.SOULRAVEN.COM
Last BRAWL Champ
First person in Australia at a tournament to beat Doubleskulls Orcs


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 1:48 pm
Posts: 493
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Suggestion:

Jed, if you are keen to see this in action, run a league yourself. As a person who doesn't play in either league, you are now suggesting changes to one of them. I would be curious to see how these teams work, but have no desire to use them in the Rock'N'Rumble league. I might be curious as to how they go. If you don't want to do a league, perhaps a progression style two day tournament?

_________________
WAFFL COACHES - PLEASE USE -----> RATT.WAFFL@IINET.NET.AU


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 11:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:13 am
Posts: 2185
Jed - If you want to play a few games back to back with some of the affected teams, let me know and we cna run a couple of games at TGA to see how they go.

Of the affected teams I have Halflings, Amazons, Khemri and maybe some others.

_________________
Sandgroper Cup 7 & Redneck Rumble 2013 - Double Crown! (Skaven - Warpstone Cometeers)
BRAWL league winner (2 seasons)
Blood Bowl Fanatic!!!


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:36 pm
Posts: 5321
Location: The Bloodbowl Pitch
Yep, got to say I'm not a fan on a lot of these changes. I like the differance in the teams. Taking Halflings for one season was an absolute blast. Didn't win many games, or expect too, but had fun playing the game. That's what it's all about IMO.

As far as the league goes, we are open to allowing alternative teams in, if we feel they add something to the league like the Brettonians. However I'm not a fan on changing the ruleset.

_________________
Spikey Balls, Chainsaws and Pogo Sticks! What more could you want from a game?

Image
WWW.SOULRAVEN.COM
WWW.BRAWLBB.COM
Official MERCS Black Ops Representative


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:51 pm
Posts: 452
Location: Perth
Quote:
Suggestion:

Jed, if you are keen to see this in action, run a league yourself. As a person who doesn't play in either league, you are now suggesting changes to one of them. I would be curious to see how these teams work, but have no desire to use them in the Rock'N'Rumble league. I might be curious as to how they go. If you don't want to do a league, perhaps a progression style two day tournament?
Well i did play 1 season in RnR...and then got banned for the following Season :wink:. Brawl 2013 conflicted with my schedule as i was working FIFO/DIDO (part of the reason i wasnt at Sandgroper 2013) i would have basically conceded 75% of my games.

Running a league is fine and ive assisted with this in the past however there is already two leagues currently in place and i feel that another would oversaturate the current offerings.

I believe i did state in the title it was a proposition to BRAWL and not to Rock'n'Rumble.

The only reason i even put this up in the first place is I was browsing for potential LRB6/7 rules and came across discussions in the European Blood Bowl Community regarding changes they have included in leagues/events (some included in this thread in the links provided). I generally like to play a different team as often as i can, I havent played Ogre/Khemri/Halflings for obvious reasons and there are quite a few other teams i generally avoid when choosing to build a team. Under this revision i would probably play Khemri/Halfling.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Advenceop - In regards to the Changes themselves. Even if Halflings are adjusted to include an AG4 catcher, the team still dies in droves with their high and mighty AV6 and ST2. Are they a Tier 1 team...no. Are they even close....no. Would they be a little more flexible to play...yes and therefore more appealing. Stunty and AG4. How is this any different to a Slann Catcher with Leap and Long Legs or a Underworld Goblin with Two Heads or a Gutter Runner with Two Heads. Other teams have got something similar. 0-4 AG4 Stunty players are not breaking any backs here.

Bruno - I sorta like it as it alters the dynamic of high tv teams (especially ones who go into the finals every season and bank huge earnings). But it only truly shines with some rejigging of income and spiraling expenses which was also mentioned in the changes.

Bruno - Two S5 AV9 no neg, regen on a non-stunty team is pretty awesome without any skills (other than regen). I think this balances the team a little nicer especially in a Vanilla League. BRAWL being an ongoing league it does make them a little worse and slows their progression a little, but it doesnt overly hamper the team.

Frosty -
*Zons linewoman are pretty amazing as a starting player and should cost. A whole team of blodgers at 6 SPP is pretty awesome. Yes their AV lets them down but compared to other teams they are possibly the hardest to knock over.
*Mino with leader is hardly game breaking, Chaos is a very slow starting team, once they get their wind, they are great. Having 1 extra RR on the team contributed from a player who is relatively easy to hurt.
*River Trolls. Unlike halflings with Two S6 AV10 players that only bomb out on a 1 and dont eat their players id like to see them with something a little extra. Thick Skull - comeon they are a troll they should have this anyway. Foul Appearance - it's a meh skill (if it was a good skill, mutation teams would actually take it...ive never ever used SPP's to purchase this skill). 1/6 chance to not hit the troll rather than hit a soft and squishy goblin...its not even a hard choice. Losing Loner - Ask any Goblin player which member of their team eats through the re-rolls...its the Trolls. I honestly dont think its a huge massive change to the game and they still have Really Stupid and Always Hungry, so yes they will still be eating Re-rolls.
*Human Catcher - on a whole Humans are not as good as they were in years past (like LRB3/4...if anyone actually remembers that long ago...for me it was like yesterday) AV8 is hardly a huge change, considering they are still pretty soft at ST2. I personally think this "balances" them more closely with Orc teams especially in longer/ongoing seasons as they dont really shine compared to what alot of teams use as Catchers. Orc have the prevalence of high AV and Strength but are marginally slower, Humans are softer and weaker, but faster. **Another example...i Like to think of Humans as a slightly slower tougher team than Skaven, however Skaven teams shining light is their Gutter Runners 10k more for +1AG +1MV (no catch) and access to Physical. Human Catchers should have AV8
* Khemri - who actually plays Khemri, who enjoys playing them. They are probably the most horrible team to play with. Losing Decay...meh. If they fail Regen, they get hurt...do you really care about the severity? 50% its going to be PAIN!
* +1 Fouling id like it to be clarified. When i first read this i thought it was a generic +1 (meaning you couldnt get 6 assists for +6 to the roll) but id like a clearer explanation.
* Sneaky Git...unwieldy? you only ever have 1-2 players total on a team with the skill anyway...its not like your wielding a whole team with this skill. Gives a small boon to Halfling, Snotlings and Goblins as their only option sometimes is to throw the boot in...getting them back 50% from sent off is pretty useful.
* I havent used a Wizard in forever...its been used against me heaps though. I honestly dont care about it.
*Slann Blitzer decrease...makes the team easier to start. If they had Block as a starting skill they would be increased in cost.
*Thick Skull on Thralls....umm YES PLEASE. You pick apart Decay, yet you dont see the point of Thick Skull on a Thrall....youve obviously never played a Vampire Team before!
*Changes to Ogre team...would be great as they still suck, but they might suck a little less.

Fangy -
I would be keen for games under the revisions. I have plenty of teams to choose from.

_________________
GW - we like to FAQ things up :)
The semantics King!

2012 Ultimates Warhammer - Best General
2012 Ultimates Warhammer - Champion


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:13 am
Posts: 2185
Right here goes...
Quote:
Advenceop - In regards to the Changes themselves. Even if Halflings are adjusted to include an AG4 catcher, the team still dies in droves with their high and mighty AV6 and ST2. Are they a Tier 1 team...no. Are they even close....no. Would they be a little more flexible to play...yes and therefore more appealing. Stunty and AG4. How is this any different to a Slann Catcher with Leap and Long Legs or a Underworld Goblin with Two Heads or a Gutter Runner with Two Heads. Other teams have got something similar. 0-4 AG4 Stunty players are not breaking any backs here.
The best thing for Stunty teams would be to bring back rostered Chefs (flings) and Bribes (Goblin), but think that would go against a core fundamental of what the BBRC introduced.

Changes to Stunty teams still need to keep them at the bottom of the pack by a fair margin. Not sure this is the way...
Quote:
Bruno - Two S5 AV9 no neg, regen on a non-stunty team is pretty awesome without any skills (other than regen). I think this balances the team a little nicer especially in a Vanilla League. BRAWL being an ongoing league it does make them a little worse and slows their progression a little, but it doesnt overly hamper the team.
Wholeheartedly agree! Grab is still a very usefull skill and it just pushes back Guard on the progression tree
Quote:
*Zons linewoman are pretty amazing as a starting player and should cost. A whole team of blodgers at 6 SPP is pretty awesome. Yes their AV lets them down but compared to other teams they are possibly the hardest to knock over.
*Mino with leader is hardly game breaking, Chaos is a very slow starting team, once they get their wind, they are great. Having 1 extra RR on the team contributed from a player who is relatively easy to hurt.
You can cancel Dodge with Tackle but you can't 'cancel' Block (wrestle takes both down but no injury so not the same). Play Zons vs a Dwarf team and you will understand! They are only worth 50k and should definitely stay that way. Long term Dodge on a player without Agility access on a normal roll is a buff, but Norse (a similar team in some ways) have got other positionals with stat ups and a Big Guy so 50k linewoman is fair
Quote:
*River Trolls. Unlike halflings with Two S6 AV10 players that only bomb out on a 1 and dont eat their players id like to see them with something a little extra. Thick Skull - comeon they are a troll they should have this anyway. Foul Appearance - it's a meh skill (if it was a good skill, mutation teams would actually take it...ive never ever used SPP's to purchase this skill). 1/6 chance to not hit the troll rather than hit a soft and squishy goblin...its not even a hard choice. Losing Loner - Ask any Goblin player which member of their team eats through the re-rolls...its the Trolls. I honestly dont think its a huge massive change to the game and they still have Really Stupid and Always Hungry, so yes they will still be eating Re-rolls.
Foul Appearance is a very good skill, especially for free! Treemen are amongst the worst of the big guys. Yes they are more accurate throwing halflings and don't eat Goblins, but Take Root and MA2 is a HUGE disadvantage. The only change you would even consider for the Trolls would be to remove Loner. Goblins are actually about right now in all honesty
Quote:
*Human Catcher - on a whole Humans are not as good as they were in years past (like LRB3/4...if anyone actually remembers that long ago...for me it was like yesterday) AV8 is hardly a huge change, considering they are still pretty soft at ST2. I personally think this "balances" them more closely with Orc teams especially in longer/ongoing seasons as they dont really shine compared to what alot of teams use as Catchers. Orc have the prevalence of high AV and Strength but are marginally slower, Humans are softer and weaker, but faster. **Another example...i Like to think of Humans as a slightly slower tougher team than Skaven, however Skaven teams shining light is their Gutter Runners 10k more for +1AG +1MV (no catch) and access to Physical. Human Catchers should have AV8
be careful comparing to other teams as they are internally balanced. Skaven can only get 2 Blitzers (same stats as Human) whereas human teams can get 4 in addtion to 4 catchers. A lot of versatility there (the whole point of Humans) so don't see much need to tinker here
Quote:
* Khemri - who actually plays Khemri, who enjoys playing them. They are probably the most horrible team to play with. Losing Decay...meh. If they fail Regen, they get hurt...do you really care about the severity? 50% its going to be PAIN!
Decay on Rotters is fine as they are cheap to replace, but on 100k players it is a bit rich. -1AV, no Decay and gain Break Tackle for 10k extra as well as adding Thick Skull to Blitz/Throwra's is enough of a buff.
Quote:
* +1 Fouling id like it to be clarified. When i first read this i thought it was a generic +1 (meaning you couldnt get 6 assists for +6 to the roll) but id like a clearer explanation.
I believe the original run had a +1 bonus when fouling without assistants, but really this rule doesn't need to be here. Foul should always be risk/reward style of action
Quote:
* Sneaky Git...unwieldy? you only ever have 1-2 players total on a team with the skill anyway...its not like your wielding a whole team with this skill. Gives a small boon to Halfling, Snotlings and Goblins as their only option sometimes is to throw the boot in...getting them back 50% from sent off is pretty useful.
Sneaky Git goes from being a relatively useless skill to being a 'must have' skill for Goblin Secret Weapons, making them quite powerful. Goblin teams get discounted Bribes to offset the number of secret weapons so adding this makes them more reliable. I would add a line saying roll for Bribe first and if failed skill cannot be used?
Quote:
* I havent used a Wizard in forever...its been used against me heaps though. I honestly dont care about it.
Quote:
*Slann Blitzer decrease...makes the team easier to start. If they had Block as a starting skill they would be increased in cost.
straight up cost decrease is good. Changing to Block would make sense as they are a Blitzer and Blitzer's should have Block as standard. Would suggest they lose Jump Up for Block and stay the same cost, but that would require decent playtesting.
Quote:
*Thick Skull on Thralls....umm YES PLEASE. You pick apart Decay, yet you dont see the point of Thick Skull on a Thrall....youve obviously never played a Vampire Team before!
It's a minor buff and not bad rules wise, but it does raise the question of theme/fluff. Why do they have a 'Thick Skull'? Maybe because they are used to losing blood? ;)
Quote:
*Changes to Ogre team...would be great as they still suck, but they might suck a little less.
Stat increase on Snotlings = good
re-roll decrease = ok, but 6 str 5 guys without loner 70k re-rolls is fair
cost decrease on Ogres = bad. They were fine at the cost they were.
Quote:
Fangy -
I would be keen for games under the revisions. I have plenty of teams to choose from.
I will have a few more weekends free coming up due to redundancy so PM me and we will organise a time

_________________
Sandgroper Cup 7 & Redneck Rumble 2013 - Double Crown! (Skaven - Warpstone Cometeers)
BRAWL league winner (2 seasons)
Blood Bowl Fanatic!!!


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 1:48 pm
Posts: 493
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Quote:
Quote:
Suggestion:

Jed, if you are keen to see this in action, run a league yourself. As a person who doesn't play in either league, you are now suggesting changes to one of them. I would be curious to see how these teams work, but have no desire to use them in the Rock'N'Rumble league. I might be curious as to how they go. If you don't want to do a league, perhaps a progression style two day tournament?
Well i did play 1 season in RnR...and then got banned for the following Season :wink:. Brawl 2013 conflicted with my schedule as i was working FIFO/DIDO (part of the reason i wasnt at Sandgroper 2013) i would have basically conceded 75% of my games.
Well it never is easy cutting someone from a league, but when the option is one or seven, it makes it easy. It was good to see you were able to come to SGC8, and congrats on the most casualties.
Quote:
Running a league is fine and ive assisted with this in the past however there is already two leagues currently in place and i feel that another would oversaturate the current offerings.
Which is why I also suggested a two day tournament in progression style...
Quote:
I believe i did state in the title it was a proposition to BRAWL and not to Rock'n'Rumble.
Yes, you did. I was merely trying to convey that I would be interested in seeing how they work on the table, but doubted any existing league would be willing to trial these rules in favour of the current CRP. But as I cannot speak for BRAWL, I thought it best to not do so.

_________________
WAFFL COACHES - PLEASE USE -----> RATT.WAFFL@IINET.NET.AU


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC+08:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited