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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:34 pm 
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On field tactics would certainly be the most important factor by a long way (e.g. if a player engineers lots of flank/rear attacks then they will win those engagements regardless of the equipment). I guess I’m just trying to understand each units role better.

Taking the zombie and orc example - a KoM spear regiment would deal 5 wounds to the zombies, while CS1 foot guard would deal 5.55, and the spears would deal 2.5 wounds to the orcs while the foot guard deal 3.33. So the damage of the foot guard does scale up more against high armour, but its still only 0.83 wounds more.

However if those same units were in the flanks the spears would deal 8.33 wounds to the zombies, and 4.17 to the orcs. While the foot guard would deal 11.11 wounds to the zombies and 6.66 to the orcs. Still not a huge difference, but greater than the head on combat.

I guess while the increased damage seems small just one or two extra wounds is the difference between wavering and a rout, so maybe this is one of those very subtle differences that have a surprising influence in this game.

I’m also dealing in very marginal numbers here……a cav regiment is going to deal 8.88 wounds to CS1 units, and 6.66 to spears so its pretty painful for either with a fair chance of both wavering.

Pikes are a really interesting one. They equal or exceed the CS1 units against all defence values bar defence 6, but take significantly less damage to rout. They really do need to be either charging or defending against cav!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:10 pm 
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Yeah, you are absolutely spot-on about the importance of those 1 or 2 two extra wounds. With two evenly matched opponents those few extra wounds on key units will be really critical for sure. One can't help noticing when playing KoW over a long time period the number of times the survival/waiver/destruction of a unit comes down to a difference of only 1 or 2 wounds. So harvesting all those extra wounds is certainly important, particularly if they can be inflicted using units that display relatively low variance on their dice rolls.

It sounds like you are giving the rules and unit stats a really thorough workout, with some very informative results. Thanks very much for sharing your learning's and observations. They are very thought provoking indeed.

Actually, I've just been browsing the Mantic Forum on the 2nd Edition rules feedback. Based on what I have been reading it looks like a lot of effort has been put into re-pointing all the units (particularly infantry) and normalising the relative balance in unit capabilities as much as possible. So it will be fascinating to see if the results you are getting now show the same degrees of difference between the various infantry unit choices (If the KoW V2 re-write team have done their jobs well the differences should be even more subtle). I guess time will tell - my preference would be to see these statistical differences reduced towards insignificance or eliminated entirely so that there are no obvious 'must have' units in any of the army lists (I think this is their aim but it will be very difficult to achieve). How they deal with variance I guess has to be by building that into the unit points costs. I can't wait to get hold of the beta rules!.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:15 pm 
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I have found that yes the double handed weapon unit generally excel as troops however it is highly dependent on their nerve value. 11/13 is leaps and bounds better than 10/12. It is also dependent on the army using it. I would never take Greatax or Moreax regiments as troops simply because they are too easy to remove by magic and my regimental upgrade isn't all that costly. They also are valuable as my solid units for taking my heroes.
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Pikes are a really interesting one. They equal or exceed the CS1 units against all defence values bar defence 6, but take significantly less damage to rout. They really do need to be either charging or defending against cav!
Pikes are actually borderline unstoppable, especially where cavalry are relied upon (if you're an Orc player of course :wink: ). Even matched up against infantry they do well. I cannot see a downside to not leaving home with them, they have exceptional defense, nerve and hit almost as hard as a cavalry regiment. War engines required, multiple flyers and wizards which an Orc player has limited to no access too. Short of running an infantry list there isn't much for me to do against 2 hordes of them except trying to flank them. Its a lot harder because a list with Pikes should have more units than the orc player as well as war engine support. Ill also be losing units before I get to kill any too.

A list with 2 pike hordes has a bad matchup though :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:30 pm 
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Yeah absolutely Baz, Pike Phalanx Hordes are amazing. They seriously downgrade Cavalry units which should never be used to charge an undamaged Pike Phalanx given the severe effect they have in reducing the Melee value of the Cavalry. These units might be relatively slow (5"-10" moves) but their 40 attacks :shock: is absolutely devastating. Don't leave home without one (or two, even better) if you have them in your preferred army list. Of course they are big so will get disrupted on the charge more often, but 40 attacks - wow!!!

At current points costs in KoW V1 they really are very attractive. I will be more than a little interested to see what the KoW V2 re-write does to the Pike Phalanx units in terms of re-pointing them. My guess is that they will cost more than they do in V1 (I hope so anyway for your sake Baz, otherwise soak the Orcs in petrol and set fire to them if you see the Kingdoms of Men approaching).

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:44 pm 
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Ill be heading down to KRAGS this Friday night with pak'ma'ra. We are both looking for 1500/1600 point games for those interested.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:45 am 
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I hope you all had a fun weekend of painting and gaming. I managed to crank out a 1600pt game versus Baz's Orcs as well as paint some of the final few pieces for my Basilean Army (almost!). At least until I decide to add some more cool stuff, like more Elohi; maybe some more Cavalry perhaps? :D

So here are the latest additions to L'armée Céleste de Sainte Jeanne d'Arc, including the young lady herself. Also shown are two Phoenix minis (these are a Heroclix Gyre Falcon and a Heroclix Rock Gryphon - lets call that one a Gryphoenix - that I got very cheaply second hand from Troll and Toad). I mounted them on a rock-mound cut from foam core and sculpted some flames around their bases using air-drying modelling clay, which was a lot easier than I thought it would be. After basing-up with dead grass and coal fragments on red sand I used a match to burn the grass to give a scorched-earth effect around the two phoenix minis (this was a nervous time but both phoenix minis survived the experience thankfully). The mini of Jeanne d'Arc is from Perry Miniatures (she comes in a pack with two of her French contemporaries that are yet to get a lick of paint; these two lads will probably end up being subsumed into my Kingdoms of Man Knights/Sergeants Regiments some time soon). Anyway, here are the pics for your enjoyment.

Jeanne d'Arc
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Phoenix (both side views)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:10 am 
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Lovely, almost time for an army picture.

The game was a whitewash, 5-0 objectives :shock: Whatever way I could paint it, it still would have been an 85% kill win and a 135% kill and pillage. I suppose its only up from here for my Orcs :P.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:33 am 
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Thanks for a quality game last night Taubad! That really got the grey matte working and was real nail biter right to the end.

The kill + pillage seems like a really good mission, where the objective are significant but not the be all and end all.

I really need to have a re-think on how I am using the drakon lord. While he put some early pressure on the right flank, and snarled it up moderately badly later on he didn’t actually get to make an attack all game. Acting as a minor irritation for 150 points doesn’t seem like a good investment. I think he should have been over with the cav on the left flank making better use of his inspiring ability (had the cav held against the chariots the drakons wouldn’t have had to abandon the right flank to save the left which would hopefully have made it harder for you to commit the elohi). He could also have made a dedicated attack on the wizards, or at least forced them to focus on him rather than the second cav regiment….that cav regiment could have been very handy in the final couple of turns!

I’m tempted to run the wizard + blasting arrow combo now as well, but a mage queen equipped with it is 140 points (only 10 points less than the drakon lord) and costs me an inspiring unit. Having said that a total of 8 zap (+blast), and three bolt throwers all of it elite, combined with 7 punchy combat units does give me a lot of options. I could even drop one unit of palace guard to spears, drop the -1 to hit for cav item and squash a third ASB in there.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:38 am 
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The phoenix and griffon look cool, greats finds! And Joan looks suitably inspiring.

And Boothy every time I reed one of your posts I realise we don't even play the same game ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:37 pm 
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Thanks for the positive feedback Orange. Yeah, I'm pretty happy with my two little birdies and their boss-lady friend, and look forward to using them soon.

That was a great game Karl, lots of careful maneuvering, some really reckless charges (from my end :lol: ), lots of hideously accurate magic attacks and a tense struggle right to the end. Loved it!

That Blasting Arrow upgrade on a Wizard is really good. But there is definitely an issue regarding the effect on inspiring if you are going to trade in the Drakon Lord for a Mage Queen with Blasting Arrow; you really need to factor in the 140pts for her plus another 30 points to replace inspiring from the Drakon Lord. It is an interesting conundrum because with that trade you also loose the ability to deep strike against my spell chuckers (et al). If I were looking to include the Mage Queen in your list I'd drop one of the Palace Guard Regiments to a half regiment (nets 30 points) which will give you your third Standard Bearer as well as 10 points for another upgrade on one of your strike units. A troop of Forrest Shamblers in lieu of one Palace Guard Regiment may also be an interesting way to do the same trade.

I guess it is a trade-off between securing a much more effective long range sniper (Mage Queen + Blasting Arrow) at the expense of army durability (inspiring saving you from losing a unit to a lucky Nerve check - which seems to happen at least once or twice each game, and which can also easily cost you the game).

Well our fabulous game last night also inspired me to post a couple of group photographs of my completed (for the moment) Basilean Female Army (there will be a High Paladin on Dragon arriving with my KoW 2 kickstarter but that one's for later). Assembly and painting of my Basileans commenced in late July 2014 and was completed at end of February 2015. The basic points costs for the units illustrated amount to a staggering 5170 pts. Total models assembled and painted, including line and leadership, were 76 Cavalry models, 107 infantry models, 14 large infantry (Angels), 6 Panther Chariots and crew, 6 Arbalests and crew and 2 Phoenix. There were also 36 Cavalry models and 29 Ogres assembled an painted during that time (all in 256 minis and mini combinations of various sizes) Here they are.....

Leadership group
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Whole army top view.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:55 pm 
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Quick question:
When declaring a charge a unit is allowed to come within 1” of other units. Is this any and all other units or just the one being charged?

I ask because if its any and all units it means regiments can pivot on the spot after being charged and charge something off to the sides (completely ignoring what has just charged them – they come within an inch but don’t actually overlap). The main limiter on this would be the unit leaders line of sight…….not a problem for cav charging past infantry.

Obviously this will be changing soon with disrupted charges, but it still makes blocking a charge with chaff much harder than I though.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:33 pm 
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Good question Boothy.

The crux of your question is dealt with in the interpenetration while moving rule allows you to pivot through an enemy unit when moving (charging) but not move through it. So any unit that overlaps an enemy unit while charging would be deemed to have contacted and thus charged the enemy unit it just overlapped.

But as you suggest the typical Regiments of 100mm (wide) x 80mm (deep), 120mm (w) x 80mm (d), 125mm (w) x 100mm (d) and 150mm (w) x 200mm (d) can indeed do what you suggest. But Troop sized units either end up with their flanks flush with the unit that just charged them (i.e. are in contact with the enemy unit or they overlap them - the 120mm wide and 125mm wide troops are the ones that overlap, while the 150mm wide Chariot Troop ends up flank flush and in contact as well). Thus Regiments can do what you suggest but Troops can't do it. The reason is all to do with the relative position of the axis of rotation of the Regiments (which are twice the depth of a Troop) being a lot further back that the axis of rotation of a Troop. So the deeper your unit the easier it is to do what you suggest; the Chariot Regiment (150mm wide and 200mm deep) is the most efficient at this as despite the fact that it starts only 1" away from the unit that just charged it once it rotates 90 degrees it ends up 2" away from that unit (the centre of rotation being a massive 5" back from the unit that just charged it.

So, it is possible in many cases provided you can see the unit off to the side you want to charge. If by some chance that unit is located just a little bit further forward than the unit that just charged you then you will easily hit the adjacent target unit in the flank. Booyeah!

In V2 of the rules the removal of 1 pivot from your unit that was just charged will make this very difficult, unless you have a height advantage over the unit that just charged you, and if the adjacent enemy units are front-edge flush that there is a gap wide enough between the adjacent units that allows you to fit along the flank. Hard to explain in words so I hope they put lots of diagrams in the rules that explain what is and what is not legal. Personally, I'd rather the rules just said that if your unit was charged it can only charge the unit that just charged it (and if it was not charged in the previous turn that it could charge anything in range that it could see).

So after my somewhat clumsy delivery of that wonderfully mind bending paper (digital) tiger lets alleviate the mental anguish with some lovely pictures of my latest additions to my Kingdoms of Man army. This week saw completion of 80 pikemen (two Pike Phalanx Hordes!!) which I cranked out in just over 4 days. They are Perry Miniatures European Mercenaries painted in Swiss livery. Next up some more infantry. Best wishes for an action-packed weekend of quality gaming/painting.

Pike Phalanx Horde in Lucerne colours
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Pike Phalanx Horde in Uri colours
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:00 pm 
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Wow you crank stuff out man, they look great. Really like the black and gold ones, they'll look great on the battlefield.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:27 pm 
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Cheers Orange, much appreciated. I really enjoyed painting these and just may pick up another 40 at some stage for a different colour scheme that also looks nice and striking. I have had a good clear run at painting this week with some time between contracts which has helped get this stuff done quickly. Have a good weekend.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:56 pm 
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So the much anticipated day has finally arrived......Kings of War V2 Beta rules have been released via Kickstarter. I'm just printing off a copy now with eager anticipation. (I'd post a photo of that if I could).

Can't wait to get stuck in reviewing and using these new rules. You little beauty!!

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