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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:02 pm 
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I have just finished reading through the new rules and lists and I am very impressed indeed.

I think one of the most interesting aspects is how the nerve of pretty much all infantry and cav has gone up, but that of all monstrous troops has gone down (and monstrous regiments remained about the same). Broadly speaking this means infantry can take a hit but dont hit back so hard, cav can both take a hit and really dish one out but can also have their hitting power negated by various means (and since the cost a lot having it hegated makes them essentially horde costed regiments), and monstrous units can hit hard but really cant take one given their points cost to nerve ratio (even if many of them have good armour).

Another think that jumped out at me were pikes.......hindered charge for everyone! Oh gods shoot them now!

And finally, i will be very interested to see what the loss of all the one strong monstrous infantry and five strong infantry will mean for the game. Very few units now cost less than 80 points so there is pretty much no chaff any more. I wonder if 10 strong troops will be the new chaff or if it will be just too expensive. This coupled with one pivot charges might have a dramatic effect on 'how to get the charge' tactics.

And now a question - in v1 when choosing a list was the 'no more than three units of the same size' a comp thing or a core rules thing. Its not in there now so im wondering if they have dropped it given the new restriction on troop sized units?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:29 pm 
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Quote:
I have just finished reading through the new rules and lists and I am very impressed indeed.
Yeah, I agree with you there. The rules will be quite solid after a few small clarifications. I like your analysis and it will be interesting to see the Infantry and Cavalry dancing with their new profiles, and the phalanx rule does sound very good too (more spearmen coming up!). I like the way that Hordes are now relatively much cheaper than the regiments which will see more of these currently unpopular units on the table-top I hope.

The Dwarves got a big buff which they needed so will now be a lot more competitive. The Forces of Nature list also looks really cool (and they all get Pathfinder :shock: - just as well I went in heavy on these in the Kickstarter :lol: ). The Elves did well too (cheaper Bolt Thrower :shock: :shock: :shock: and that new Wizard unit 8) makes my eyes water). They've even made the Basilean Arbalests a little more attractive with Blast D3 + 2 being much better than the old Blast D3 - maybe I won't burn them all to keep warm this winter after all.
Quote:
And now a question - in v1 when choosing a list was the 'no more than three units of the same size' a comp thing or a core rules thing.
This was a competition thing only. The V1 core rules did not set any hard and fast limits beyond needing solid units per hero and war engine and monster inclusion. This has been tightened up a little in the V2 rules.

...and now after all the excitement of the day almost done, with knee-jerks aplenty, lets look at some freshly painted minis! :D

Kingdoms of Men Foot Guard (Fireforge Deus Vult Templar Knights)
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Kingdoms of Men Foot Guard (Fireforge Deus Vult Teutonic Knights)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:29 pm 
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I'd figure I would comment now :mrgreen:

From the start I was against windblast and bane chant. However I am an Orc player. The Orc army list hinges entirely upon bane chant! I don't know whether to weep or rejoice? What do I do!?!? If I campaign against bane chant I am going to shoot myself in the foot! :?:

Don't worry Adrian, Orcs got a massive kick in the teeth from first glance, core units have gone up by almost 25% with some exceptions.

About the rage, I think most of this stems from removal of units. I think this is a bad direction to take the game. They are also trying to bring allying into competitive play, something else I am against. However general consensus seems to be in support of this.

The best off appear to be the Dwarves, who lets be honest, needed a look at. They even got cheaper in some cases. Now I can't be for certain where this 25% swings comes from but only play testing will resolve it. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:27 am 
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From the start I was against windblast and bane chant. However I am an Orc player. The Orc army list hinges entirely upon bane chant! I don't know whether to weep or rejoice? What do I do!?!? If I campaign against bane chant I am going to shoot myself in the foot!
LOL!!!

No I think you should stay steadfastly and resolutely opposed to Bane Chant Baz; well when you are playing against me anyway. :roll:

But seriously you really need this rule now. Gotta get some Beta games in so we can get some useful feedback to the KoW Rules Committee. You mentioned that this Friday at KRAGS might be a goer...?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:51 am 
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My goblins went up by about 25% too. Same for apparently every other army. There's a whole thread on the Mantic forums about it but basically, they decided to set the cost of a KoM Shieldwall to 100, and then adjusted everything else around that accordingly. There are exceptions of course for units that needed rebalancing, but otherwise it translated to about a 25% increase across the board.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:43 am 
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Looking beautiful Taubad, the white looks so clean and crisp.

And odd stuff getting more expensive! Will it mean you'll need less models?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:01 am 
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Not exactly Orange, the standard game size is increasing from 1600 points to 2000 points. It should still be about the same.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:06 am 
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My goblins went up by about 25% too. Same for apparently every other army.
Yeah, the up-pointing was an interesting decision, but I see the logic in it now - sort of a de facto Ctrl+Alt+Delete method for resetting and re-balancing the costs. In theory it looks like it might actually have worked in most cases (but a few outstanding items like the Greater Earth Elemental that appears in several lists look a tad under-costed - but I'm sure those will be identified and adjusted in Beta testing).

Baz took some big hits on his Orcs with big points hikes on most units and with all his Spam getting nerfed (but he does have single model Chariot Spam, as many other armies do - but I hope they get rid of these too).

Thanks for the feedback on the Foot Guard Orange, much appreciated. I like painting white minis and they look so visible on the gaming table.
Quote:
And odd stuff getting more expensive! Will it mean you'll need less models?
With the average of 25% points increase the official size of tournament level games has also increased from the current level of 1600pts to a new level of 2000 points. There is talk of allowing up to 1/3 of the points being able to be used on allies, but this is meeting with some resistance from old-school purists (like me). However, there may be some mis-balanced effects from the re-pointing in the Beta rules. One of the posts by a Rules Committee member suggests that lists that are more elite in nature may over-run their costs when re-costed (normalised from 1600 to 2000 pts) with the KoW V2 stats when compared to more rank and file lists. But their stated intention is to address this during and after Beta testing.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:28 pm 
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I think the Basilian artillery is a solid choice now….doing the maths they inflict almost exactly the same amount of damage as elven ones point for point (maths on 6 bolt throwers vs 9.33 ballistas sees the bolt throwers inflict an extra two hits per turn).

Dwarfs look like a fantastic army with the new additions! I’m trying to work out if I could get away with using my lizards as them lol. A proper offensive dwarf army backed by earth elementals sounds great…….a front line of def6 and def5 + phalanx just sounds tasty!

I’m a bit disappointed in the orc list. Chariots are now not bad value but still seem to fill the same niche as the gore riders……..and if there is one army that really doesn’t need bane chant its orcs! Their wizards would have been a lot more interesting with a bog standard zap + something option (to add a genuine ranged game to the orcs. As it stands they can take Wip, a boom stick, the breath attack gem, and that’s about it.) As it stands they are still a one dimensional list. They do that dimension really well though I guess. I still cant see the point of fight wagons.

It will be really interesting to see how much bane chant actually takes off. Besides goblins (and possibly ogres – cant remember) it looks like it is limited to dedicated support wizards only….all of whom end up costing >80 points by the time they have the chant. While it is undeniably powerful I wonder how worthwhile it will be over another entire regiment (roughly).

I played my first game yesterday and use an elf mage queen with bane chant and the inspiring talisman…….I only cast bane chant twice all game (and one of those was in the first turn on a bolt thrower because none of my units were hurt yet). After that all the combats were either going to be a decisive win, or token damage regardless, so I went for heal 80% of the time. At 135 points she was a serious investment and probably needs to be working that bane chant a lot harder! In the future I would probably drop her for another ASB and give two of them the boom stick and heal gem, lets me cast two spells per turn rather than one, and saves me 25 points overall.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:33 pm 
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Cheers Boothy, thanks for the maths. Interesting outcome that is encouraging. I think a mix of Arbalests and 1-2 Bolt Throwers is possibly the way an allied Basilean-Elf list might look (with Palace Guard or Elf Bowmen as the solid units). Anyway, I'll be trying out some combos along these lines to see what happens.

Yeah, Orcs got shafted I think. Disappointing for sure. However, Bane Chant may save them to some degree but it seems a little limited and will be quite variable in effect perhaps (just a few dice rolls will be critical).

Dwarves will be very dangerous now and their shooting will be quite devastating I think....not to mention def 5/6 on the front. Ouch!

Lots of new and interesting twists and turns will now be encountered I think.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:47 am 
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Had another game against Karl on the weekend, and I must say that im really quite enjoying how KoW plays. As much as I love Warhammer, its quite refreshing to play a game where any unit has a decent chance to destroy any other unit - it makes the game more about tactics and strategy than list building. Its also a nice change of pace from uber-deathstars dominating a game.

Im a little sad about the changes made to the KoM list, specifically that a lot of the "flavour" units have been taken out (eg: Ogres, Flaggelents, etc). Now it just kind of feels like a historical medieval army with the odd wizard or pegasus thrown in. Not very fantasy-feeling at all. :cry:

After going through the other army lists im quite liking the look of the Orcs - choppy, decent Nerve values, and they look like I could port a number of stuff from my Skaven collection over (Axes + Greataxes = converted stormvermin, Chariots = Doomwheels, "Pump Wagons" = Doomflayers, Giant = Hellpit, Trolls = Rat Ogres, etc). I might have to give them a go.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:42 am 
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I always figured that the Goblin list would work well worth skaven proxies. You've got your cheap horde troops, plenty of different warmachines and of course trolls for your rat ogres. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:31 pm 
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Im a little sad about the changes made to the KoM list, specifically that a lot of the "flavour" units have been taken out (eg: Ogres, Flaggelents, etc). Now it just kind of feels like a historical medieval army with the odd wizard or pegasus thrown in. Not very fantasy-feeling at all.
There's a lot of people who feel the same way about losing their units! But its interesting how I haven't really thought about the Kingdoms of Men as a fantasy list. With the loss of those units it now feels a little more obvious?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:43 pm 
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Quote:
I always figured that the Goblin list would work well worth skaven proxies. You've got your cheap horde troops, plenty of different warmachines and of course trolls for your rat ogres. ;)
I might try out Goblins first (Skavelins? :P ). The only issue I have with them is that their units feel a lot more crap than the other armies (poor melee, shooting, defense and nerve values), which is their schtick, but they dont seem to be cheap enough when compared to similar units from different races (a horde of Sharpsticks are 40pts cheaper than a horde of KoM Spearmen, have the same SP, DE and ATT but worse Me and Nerve). Furthermore, their heavy hitters will be scarpering pretty quick-ish after only sustaining a handful of Wounds.

Anyone had any success using the little nose-pickers?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:27 pm 
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I've done pretty well with my own goblins. They have some great artillery and while their units are generally not great, they'll still tear stuff apart when you hit them on the flank. And flaming certainly becomes much easier when you outnumber your opponent by so much. :)

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