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It's just too hard! What to take for Paradiso? - WestGamer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:08 pm 
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I Just cant work it out, there are just too many things I want to try, please help me!

Some background:
I have always played vanilla Aleph since I like having access to some of the vedic units so much. However recently I have been proxying up some other armies and have been experimenting with lists featuring double link teams (QK, Tohaa), and link team + medium TAG (Corregidor), and have really been enjoying what I have found.

The efficiency with which a double link list can get up the field is marvellous, and cheap TAG's are great since its not the end of the world if they are taken out. A note on link teams – my favourite aspect has been getting lots of units up the field fast, the actual link bonuses haven’t phased me that much, as such even if a link breaks once I'm mid field I'm OK with that.

After playing these lists I thought Id have a go at bringing it back to ALEPH:
The 1st list is the double link list. I'm pretty much happy with it, may make a few tweaks, but the core should stand:

56 – Patroclus (spitfire)
43 - Ajax (lt)
39 - myrmidon officer (chain of command, boarding shotgun)
32 - myrmidon (spitfire)
16 - myrmidon (chain rifle)
29 - thrasmedes (light rocket) or Nisse (but she causes SWC problems when combined with Ajax and Patroclus)
16 - spec ops (multi sniper rifle, mimetism, doc/hac/engi)
13 - thorakitai (smg)
4 - netrod

The idea is that each of the links has a bit of everything (long range, short range, ODD, armour), so that the leader for any given task can be the individual most suited to it. Ajax may stay with his link (but I'm hesitant to have the lieutenant and chain of command in the same part of the table!) or he may go off on his own. Patroclus is something of a wild card, he is expensive, but I like his combination of speed, resilience, and fire power.

Now the problem list!
This one is supposed to be TAG + link team.....which fits in fine, but Im struggling to pad the rest of the list out:

80 – Achillies (Lt, spitfire)
~40 – Enomotarchos character
25 – myrmidon (combi rifle...or spitfire depending on who the link forming character is)
16 – myrmidon (chain rifle)
16 – spec ops (chain of command, hacker/doctor/engineer/minelayer)

So that's about 170ish points. I think the spec ops acting as the chain of command model is a good idea as opposed to a myrmidon officer since Id rather use one of the hero's to form the link and bring additional fighting power for a comparable points cost.

I could squash a thorakitai link in as well....but that's not really the point so I'm hoping to find some other ideas.

What do we think?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:55 pm 
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Something you may want to look at is long range support and maybe MSV, also are you running the Greek sect? also who is Enomotarchos?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:11 pm 
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Enomotarchos(sp?) is the skill that lets Aleph form link teams. All the heros besides Achillies, Thamyris, motorbike woman (whos name I cant spell at all!) have it, as well as myrmidon officers. As such each link has to be based around one of them.

In addition to Achillies I'll deffinately want to include a few more spitfires/mk12's, but anything heavier than that is hard to come by (the total reaction remote is an option Im seriously considering though).

MSV-2 is fairly uninspiring in the steel phalanx with only the ageema having access to it. They are OK for forcing people to hide in total cover during the reactive turn, but they are fairly slow, cant be linked, and only have one wound so dont mesh that well with the rest of the list, and dont act as good ARO peices either.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:30 pm 
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Have you thought about Alanta or Phoenix? they do provide that long range support. Also I'm surprised you aren't taking Diomedes, also you may want to look at chain of command as I see Achilles drawing a lot of fire.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:28 am 
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Ah yes Phoenix, I had forgotten about him…..he would fit in nicely as he can form the myrmidon link team as well (and there are 40 of the 44 required points to fit him in already allocated in the list). Not a huge fan of Atlanta on paper……just a bit too squishy for a 50 point model with a burst two gun (sooner or later the enemy will pass all their saves, fluke a shot back, and I will cry).

Chain of command is on the spec ops in the Achilles list (and I agree it’s absolutely essential with such a front line lieutenant)…….in fact I like chain of command so much that once I started using it I haven’t written an Aleph list since without including it.

If I go for Achilles and Phoenix I end up at 181 points, 4 SWC, and 5 orders. I’d love to include diomedes as well but the list is going to end up order starved pretty fast I think….although it is possible:

Achilles (lt, spitfire)
Phoenix
Myrmidon (combi)
Myrmidon (chain rifle)
Diomedes
Spec ops (chain of command, minelayer, doc/engi)
Servant remote
Thorakitai (smg)
2 Netrods

It’s not bad actually. I generally don’t like having cheerleaders besides the netrods (four choices in the list have neither the speed nor range to play a major role in the game)….however the fighting elements of the list are impressive.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:52 am 
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I’ve been having a bit more of a contemplate about link teams and am coming to the conclusion that perhaps they should be used to support order hungry pieces to avoid said units getting isolated (unless they are a full 5 strong link that can be the focus of a list).

As such I am now considering the extremely un-subtle brick to face style list that Achilles and two link teams could bring……I could pump 6 orders into Achilles and still advance a good distance with the entire rest of the army allowing the already tough man-TAG to retrat to safety easily during the reactive turn:

80 – Achilles (lt)
39- myrmidon officer (chain of command)
32 - myrmidon (spitfire)
16 – myrmidon (chain rifle)
16 – myrmidon (chain rifle)
29 – thrasmedes (light rocket launcher)
16 – spec ops (multi sniper rifle, mimetism, doctor/engi)
13 – thorakitai (smg)
4 - netrod
3 – slave remote (or another netrod)
248/4.5

To go with this list I thinking a more subtle list with the less brutal units (such as the mono mine remote, Diomedes, Patroclus etc) Probably based around a single link…….I’m not really sure what it would bring that the primary list cant already deal with though.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:30 pm 
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List looks scary!

One point though, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the dire foe characters count as the single Spec Op available to ITS legal lists. As Paradiso isn't ITS maybe Jarrod could clarify if it's ok to take a Dire Foe and a Spec Op?

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I'm a member at NWS, pop down for a game of Helldorado some time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:37 pm 
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1 spec ops and Dire Foes count as spec ops


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:07 pm 
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Actually I don't know where to stand on this, it contains me reading rules more into it but I will give a better response soon in the tournament thread


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:29 am 
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Well, I had a couple of interesting games against Mr TO last night.

He was using Morats with a full hungry link and a TAG with a heavy grenade launcher. I won initiative in both games.

In the 1st Jarrod deployed everything in total cover so Achilles ran up the table, nanopulsed the hungry link to oblivion, hunted down the lieutenant, and killed a random cheerleader. This left Jarrod in loss of lieutenant with three orders left….game over

The second game was much more interesting. I tried to do the same thing again (since the hungry link was even more exposed this time), but I went after the lieutenant first. Sadly during this endeavour Achilles got crited by an order monkey, and then failed all his saves against a light flamer and burnt to death. To add insult to injury his target passed enough saves to still be alive!.....this is a big problem as I have burnt most of my order, lost my most powerful piece and achived nothing…….and Jarrod has a heavy TAG and a full order pool to come. As such the myrmidon link runs into a building to check a crate and hide from the TAG!

Jarrod then matches my luck with his own by going nuts with the heavy grenade launcher, spending his entire order pool on speculative shots to the grand achievement of one dead netrod! I think we both had the worst two turns I have ever seen in this game!

In my second turn I burn my entire order pool shooting down the TAG with the spitfire myrmidon (the TAG just couldn’t deal with the ODD and cover)

After that the game devolved into a horrible spiteful chain rifle fest leaving pretty much everyone dead at the end.

I made a slight error that caused me to throw away a myrmidon needlessly against the hungry link. I went for a 1 order spend to chain rifle all 3 of the remaining ones which costs the myrmidons life – unfortunately one survived so I then had to move the thorakitai link over to deal with it. Had I just moved the link up in the 1st place I could have saved an order, a life, and got into a better position to lock down Jarrods options in his turn. As it stood the link ended up being left in the open and then picked off by an auto cannon ( 2 shots for 11’s for the cannon vs 2 shots for 12’s from my sniper), a risky move, which I could have made much riskier by being in cover with the sniper for just one more order (2 shots for 8’s, vs 2 shots for 12’s). Due to the link being shot up Jarrod was able to run forward and score a load of objective points to win 5:3.

Overall this was an interesting learning experience, and I think we both got off much lighter than we should have.

On my part, killing the Tag was massively lucky, at ARM11 in cover it takes a lot of spitfire shots to kill one! (15 winning hits on average!) In addition if the Tag finds itself in a poor fire fight it can elect to fail its guts test and move to total cover (behind a building in this case).

It seems to me I have two real ways to deal with a TAG……get Achilles into combat (PH16 and explosive combat weapon will tear them to bits!) Or, get the myrmidons into combat where the assisting rolls will have them causing crits fairly easily, and the AP combat weapons are a legit threat. Without a heavy flamer the TAG was vulnerable to being mobbed like this.

Jarrod very cleverly blocked any kind of Achilles combat assassination by deploying the TAG within the radius of his super hacker, and it was far too far away for the myrmidons to get there.

It seemed like if I could come up with a way to reliable survive a turn 1 attack from the Tag and the hungry link it would actually be easier to go second. The TAG was so far away, and so well bunkered up around buildings and defensive hackers that I didn’t have a way to hurt it, and my own efforts just bring me into the mid field where I am more vulnerable to the hungry counter attack.

I think Jarrod again left his deployment way too open. Had Achilles not been crited and then failed all his ARM rolls we could easily have had a repeat of the 1st game. However I wonder if risking Achilles against a flamer for a turn one win is actually an acceptable strategy? The odds are in my favour, bit it s a big risk for a very big reward. I basically went for it due to fear of a Tag with 11 orders to play with or 11 orders of dogged chainrifles!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:48 am 
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This, I think, is where having the ability to flee off of the table and end the game early really could come into play, and is why I'm keen to try some of the ITS missions. Without being able to complete YAMS missions in turn 1, it means that if someone literally murderlates your army like Achilles did in game 1, you can run your remaining models off of the table and the game ends in a draw. That forces you to make sure that you spend your first turn or so setting up to complete objectives later on, rather than having the game end straight away in a massive blaze of ODD glory.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:47 pm 
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I didnt think you could choose to flee of the table in ITS? The game ends after a player who is in retreat has their turn, but in the example of these games, with a 100ish point Morat TAG left alive Jarrod was miles from retreat.

I am a big fan of ITS missions though (especially with docs and paramedics acting as specialists in 2014). We shall have to organise some games.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:15 pm 
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That might be it then - I'm not 100% certain on the ITS rules, but the game does end sooner once the enemy is in retreat, so there is a serious dis-incentive to go all out and murder things, which is the important element. Definitely will be keen for some games of ITS once I'm back from Finland, too!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:42 pm 
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When are you back? Lets book an outpost sesh in.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:27 am 
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I'm back on March 2, so we could book a game in for March 11 - not sure I'll be making it to club straight away on the 4th. Will be good to try some more objective-intense games!


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