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Land Raiders - endangered species? - WestGamer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:10 pm 
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In my long journey to collect a Space Marine army--which is now coming to me actually painting it--I've acquired two Land Raider Redeemers because:

1) They seem a good way to transport assault Terminators
2) I like assault Terminators
3) Land Raiders are cool and in theme of my army

However since I started using grav weapons, I've noticed how incredibly effective they are at limiting the impact of a Land Raider as a transport and short-range weapon provider. One 6 and it's pretty much useless. 240 points of useless. Two 6s and you've got one hull point left.

While not all my opponents will have grav weapons, I like to make a 'take-all-comers' list and not change it depending on who I'm playing, and of course if I took it to a tournament I'd have a fairly good chance of coming across a marine or Ad Mech opponent.

So am I wrong in thinking Land Raiders have become a bit useless in this environment? Is the lascannon version a better option, or is a Storm Raven really the only way to go?

I'm not so worried about taking any of the cheaper tanks, they're far less of a target, and usually a lot cheaper. An immobolised Rhino isn't the end of the world, and it really doesn't matter if a Predator is immoblised, as you probably don't want to move with it anyway.

Interested to hear what people think.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:16 pm 
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Tanks in general when it comes to grav and haywire


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:49 pm 
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The increase in Grav and D certainly impacts the survivability of a Raider.

The other factor is the increased amount of Imperial Knights. More knights means more Melta/Lance weapons on the table.

I recall a tournament a couple of years ago that I went along to. I played a guy in the final round who had 5(?) land raiders. 3 Crusaders, 2 Godhammers. He'd done well because back then most people were packing loads of plasma instead of anti-tank. I was sporting a load of Brightlances, and a couple of Crimson hunters, and made short work of them.

Both Land Raiders and Storm Ravens have issues in being used as a transport for Terminators. Raiders are 240 points for something that's only marginally more survivable against Haywire and Grav than a rhino. A Raider full with Hammernators is going to be priority number one, as soon as it's dead, your choppy unit is pretty much out of the game. If it gets immobilized or exploded before you've moved it, it's a pretty sizable amount of points out of the game.

Stormraven will work as a method of delivery for hammernators, but there's a bunch of caveats. It's not on the table for at least one turn. That's an issue with all fliers of course, but with X points of hammernators potentially sitting in reserve for 1-3 turns, you're handicapping yourself. Flyers themselves seem a tad overpriced and are heavily comped in CC. At least when the stormraven comes crashing down with it's cargo, they'll be upfield and have a decent chance at surviving with their 3++.

If you were to take Terminators, I think regular deep-strike to be a much more efficient way of getting them in. Can they fit in a drop-pod with the new codex? For 35 points you'll get to bring them in on turn 1 (as a big distraction unit), and keep them safe from mishaps.

I should add that in a CC and casual environment, Raiders are infinitely better than in a no holds barred setting.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:04 pm 
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The Land Raider formation might actually make them worthwhile again. You have to have 3 of the beasts though, but it definitely eliminates the weakness of getting immobilized. Also means that it takes 4 grav hits to kill you instead of 3, which is something. Still bad news against haywire, or that lucky explode from a meltagun.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:54 pm 
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Rather than deep striking why don't you put terminators in a drop pod. It's far more reliable. Bonus is that you can make sure they are in your opponents face turn one.

Btw - I agree Landraiders are cool. If you do take them not all opponents have the capacity to deal with them so they can still have a place.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:02 am 
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Cheers guys.

I didn't realise you could put Terminators in pods... didn't there used to be a rule that they couldn't go in them, or they didn't have access to them? I read all through the book and couldn't find any reference to that, so I suppose now that you can buy a pod as a fast attack choice, it's easy enough to do.

I can definitely see that in no-comp tournaments LRs are a waste of time, but even in a comp environment or in casual games it feels like a waste when probably half of the time your opponent can negate them so easily. It seems like the whole thing has not been very well thought through! I feel like grav would be a lot more interesting if it just caused an automatic stunned rather than an automatic immobilised.

I played against an Ad Mech army last night that had a unit of the grav guys, and though he stopped a rhino and a dread with it (and the dread was unlucky, I thought it was out of LOS but it was in by a whisker), it wasn't anything I really couldn't afford to lose.

It's a shame that LRs have just become a cool thing, though, rather than something that has a genuine place.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:37 am 
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Terminators had no way to access pods until the option to buy them as fast attack came along - that's why it's never really been done

It's primary advantage over just using their built in drop rules is that you can deploy them T1 from the pod which can give you the chance at a T2 charge

As for the LR.... Like most vehicles, you want more than 1 - ideally 2 or 3 so that the impact of 1 being stuck is less hurtful.

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